Since When Isn't It OK to Insult the President?

see the fine line

By: phpeter | Mon, 09/14/2009 - 09:42

Few points:

1) There is a line of reasonableness that nobody wants to draw here. Some people want to see race as the motive for every action that is taken (a gun being taken to a rally must be because the Pres is black) while others want to see no race as a player in the motives of people. Race has and always will be a player here, but lets not be stupid in how much impact it actually has. It is not as big a motivator as some would have you believe.

2) If you are going to spout numbers, then name the source. If you say 400% more death threats, then link the source...not too hard to do, is it?

3) We are all pretty reasonable people and most involved in this debate are reasonable people. We have real concerns regarding policy, impact, issues etc, so lets not get into extremist arguements like saying the GOP is creating George Tillers....that is just so un true. Just because a guy is white and kills a black guard doesn't mean he identifies or anybody identifies with him. This is politics we are talking about here, not irrational racial hatred. I think smart people can see the difference here.

I dunno, Quinnae. Van Jones

By: stubbylibrarian | Sat, 09/12/2009 - 23:41

I dunno, Quinnae. Van Jones was a Truther - he was a czar. That's pretty mainstream, isn't it? As for mainstream politicians who encourage fringe elements - Pete Stark, D-California congressman, said on the floor of the House that Bush was sending people to die in Iraq for the fun of it. I think that, as professional civility goes, rather scrapes the bottom of the barrel.

No one's hands are clean, and I'm not going to get all worked up over this crap. I don't think it's any worse than what we've seen for the past 8 years. And I'd wager most independents - that is, those who don't believe that the rightness or wrongness of someone's actions depends on the political party to whom they've declared allegiance - agree with me.

Hell, even Diane Feinstein is sounding reluctant about the health care legislation. I think what we're seeing may be the beginning of a major political realignment in American politics. I think Congress may have finally pissed off enough people that major change is in the offing. I certainly hope so. We need something to break the logjam of two party politics.
http://reason.com/blog/show/136041.html

This whole "Republicans are eevil!" "Democrats are eevil!" is just so freaking stupid. I know Republicans who support gay marriage. I know Democrats who think gay people are icky. I know Republicans who teach in major universities (they're very quiet about their political inclinations, of course), and I know racists who've never voted anything but Democrat in their entire lives. Of course, I don't live on the east or west coasts. I live in a purple Gulf Coast city - i.e., not in a bubble.

More Reality Checking

By: Quinnae Moongazer | Sat, 09/12/2009 - 21:15

Ah, Stubbylibrarian... If you choose to take the statistic with a grain of salt as it undermines your thesis, that is your affair.

The essence of your argument is that because the left did it, it's okay. This, however, ignores the fact that the tone and sheer volume of vituperative 'protesting' of this president is of a different order than what occurred during the Bush years.

To compare the Birthers with the Truthers is particularly rich considering that not one mainstream politician or commentator on the Left supported them during the Bush years. Aside from the occasional activist, fringe filmmaker or disaffected youth, the Truthers did not receive much support and certainly none whatsoever in Congress or in the liberal commentariat. The Birthers have. The Republicans have courted them, the cosigners of the so-called Birther Bill in Congress covertly sympathise with their aims. One of them, Congressman Ted Poe of Texas dawdles with that asinine legislation while one of his constituents, a close friend of mine, can't get health insurance because of her "pre-existing condition."

Second, if the only person you've seen carrying a gun was a "black guy" you really haven't been paying attention. That particular person, yes, was sent by a radio station. Many of the others were not, they were white, and they saw themselves as fighting Obama's "fascism". One infamously wore a t-shirt stating that the tree of liberty had to be sustained by blood.

Third, most of these protesters are not converted democrats or liberals, the majority of the loud and proud 9/12 crowd are the unabashed, unashamed right wing. The march in Washington today, which (the numbers were also much lower than the antiwar protests, some of which drew hundreds of thousands and a few had 1m+) was a supposed nadir of the tea-bagging protests was in part sponsored by NARLO, National Association of Rural Land Owners.

Go to their website and tell me what it says. Pay close attention to their patriotic statements about the coming violent overthrow of the US government and how you ought to "bring a gun because you might need it."

Also look up who owns and sponsors Freedom Works, which is another engine behind these protests. Corporations, most of them opposed to healthcare legislation that might eat into their profit margins.

They are taking you for fools.

This is not the equivalent of what happened during the Bush years. Chiefly because this is something supported by a *lot* of mainstream Republican leaders, several examples of which I cited previously. The Truther movement had no support whatsoever in mainstream liberalism. The Birthers gained a lot of mainstream credibility from conservative commentators, politicians, and activists at these protests.

Death threats

By: stubbylibrarian | Sat, 09/12/2009 - 20:24

I don't know where people are getting the 400% figure from, but I'm taking it with several grains of salt. I can't count the number of protest marches over the last 8 years which featured many, many posters calling for Bush's assassination, some of them declaring that the carrier was happy to do the job himself/herself. Then you had the assassination art exhibits, the film about Bush's assassination, the words "snipers wanted" superimposed over Bush's picture on Craig Kilborn's show, etc. etc. etc.

The protests and anger directed at Obama, however undoubtedly whacky much of it is, is no worse than what the Bush years saw. The Birthers are nutty, but no nuttier than the Truthers. Beck is a hysteric, but he's not a terrorist or a racist or an inciter of assassination and the more people scream about it, the more attention he gets.

I think the number of people in DC today rivalled the biggest anti-war protest march of the Bush years. Politicians ignore these protests -- which are not racial but economic in nature - I've seen lots of non-white people in the photos - at their peril. Calling old folks Nazis and terrorists doesn't get you votes. Nancy Pelosi doesn't have to worry about pissing off disgruntled independents, but the Blue Dog Dems do.

A lot of Americans - many of whom normally vote Democratic, many of whom voted for Obama - are not at all happy with the things he's done or allowed Congress to do, and they're not happy with the health care and cap and trade legislation. You can call them names and pee your pants in terror all you want, but their numbers are growing.

And "people" aren't showing up armed at Presidential rallies. One guy that I know of has done that so far, and he was a black guy doing it as a stunt for a radio show. The Black Panthers marched with rifles displayed at a Republican convention in Texas a few years ago. Many white Republicans who otherwise love guns were mighty upset about that - but it was completely legal, and not a shot was fired. There's a difference between brandishing a gun and carrying one.

Reality Check

By: Quinnae Moongazer | Sat, 09/12/2009 - 19:48

Rachel Lariomore is admirable for her attempts at moderation, but I have found in her writings and those of other so called 'moderate' conservatives time and again attempts at cheap moral equivalence in an attempt to justify current Republican excesses by the back door.

She is not alone in this, certainly. We hear it all the time, that Obama is only getting from the right what Bush got from the left.

But as was said during the presidential campaign (another sorry theatre of 'moderate' moral equivalence) there is no symmetry of sin between Obama and his Republican rivals. They have turned it up to 11 in a way that the Left could only dream of.

The president is being compared to Hitler and derided as communist by unprecedented numbers of conservatives in the mainstream media and in government. During the Bush administration comparitively few *mainstream* liberals did this. You might be able to cherrypick one or two examples of someone who went over the top, but generally aside from signs at anti war rallies there is no equivalence there.

Obama has been derided as a fascist, socialist, communist, all in the same breath at times by powerful conservatives who are openly courting the support of the tea-baggers and lunatic fringe.

Ms. Larimore, I am sorry, but you cannot compare. The booing in past presidential addresses doesn't measure up to the fact that a Republican shouted at the president in the midst of an address to the nation, and this has no precedent from the other side.

To say there is no racial component to this is to miss the context that the far right has created. Glenn Beck saying that Obama is a racist who hates "white culture" (which is a buzzword among white supremacists), Limbaugh saying that he had a dream where he was a white slave building an Obama sphinx, and the Birther movement which is entirely predicated on Obama's non white name and appearance, and which has been courted by one too many members of the GOP delegation.

Again without precedent or equivalent from the Left or Democrats during the Bush years. Aside from Kanye West's infamous outburst you never heard the substantive insistence that Bush was some white supremacist insurgent, as the right now routinely implies of President Obama and African Americans. Glenn Beck has been scaremongering about Black Nationalists for some time now, his attacks on Van Jones were laced with race baiting, skewering his activism for minority, inner city communities.

Then there is of course, the signs at the 9/12 Project rally today that said "Diversity is a Disease", and the openly racist signs at town hall rallies. The racist comments on the Facebook page of the new chair of the Young Republicans which she openly and publicly cheered on. And she *still won* after that scandal broke.

Obama's race combined with his liberalism make him a perfect target for the GOP, and they will do what they have always done which is stoke anger in exurban white communities, and resentment against the social changes that America has undergone since the 1960s, in an attempt at the usual alchemy that turns that excrement into votes. He would still be opposed by the right if he was White, yes, but he'd be attacked differently, and perhaps with less vitriol from certain quarters. Limbaugh wouldn't have had his 'dream' about a white president, assuredly.

If you and others resent your party being defined by Beck et al, take it up with Michael Steele, Eric Cantor, and everyone else in the GOP and the mainstream media who has so openly courted and echoed them almost verbatim, and granted the manna of legitimacy to their delusions.

Can you *honestly* blame people for seeing flagrant racism in the GOP these days? I can go on with further examples, but this has gone on long as it is.

Ms. Larimore, if you want to be moderate, properly disavow these people. Do not make excuses for them or say that Republicans got it just as bad, then worm out of making a substantive criticism of their insanity. They didn't. There is no moral equivalence here.

Insulting the President

By: cfarris | Fri, 09/11/2009 - 17:53

I would have greater sympathy for your comments if death threats to the President haven't gone up 400% since Obama and not W is now president. also, since protesters show up a presidential rallies toting semi-automatics. Show me an instance of these two very real indicators of unpresidented hostility to Obama that were demonstrated earlier by Bush protesters and I'll listen. Instead, your protests exist mainly to give you and other Republican sympathizers "plausible deniability". That way, you get to reap the political benefits of the groundswell of murderous rage that is being deliberately stoked, yet keep your distance (you think) from any fallout if a right-winger takes somebody up on the suggestion and takes a shot at Obama.

Forgot something

By: stubbylibrarian | Fri, 09/11/2009 - 16:59

Wilson's district has voted Republican for over 40 years and he won by a wide margin in 08, a disasterous year for Republicans, so I think he's safe in the next election even if his constituents bother to remember this.

So no one remembers Pete Stark?

By: stubbylibrarian | Fri, 09/11/2009 - 16:47

October 2007, suggesting Bush was sending troops off to Iraq to get their heads blown off for his amusement? It was said on the floor of the House.

But I guess, if Congressman has ever ever shouted the exact words "you lie" during a Presidential address to a joint session then yes, technically, Wilson's outburst is unprecedented.

But in the annals of Congressional incivility, this was nothing. Both sides behave like children, one just as much and just as often, as the other and both clutch their pearls and screech in outrage when they're on the receiving end. It's stupid and pointless and utterly meaningless to anyone who isn't a blinkered partisan.

And for the record, Obama does lie. A lot. He's a politican and he's a liar. Funny how that works.

Beck = entertainer?

By: CorkPopper | Fri, 09/11/2009 - 11:45

I am confident that Glenn Beck's show is viewed as entertainment by the people who employ him. It's possible that Beck himself knows it's entertainment, and turns off the crazy as soon as the camera is gone. (Although I have my doubts.) I absolutely believe that Limbaugh knows he's an entertainer. But here's the thing: a sizeable portion of these guys' audiences DO NOT look at their content as entertainment. They look at it as God's truth, and are mad as hell/scared shitless about what these guys tell them is happening to their country. And SOME of them might just get mad enough to do something about it (see Tiller, George). It's all fun and games until someone gets shot.

stop the nonsense

By: phpeter | Fri, 09/11/2009 - 11:28

First, to the poster who references the GOP history with regard to racism, BOTH PARTIES HAVE A POOR HISTORY REGARDING RACISM. There, the ugly truth is that racism doesn't stay bound to party lines at all and never has. No real correlation there. Republicans actually have a proud history regarding racial issues, just go back and do a little reading.

Second, Ms. Larimore fully conceded it was poor form to say what Rep. Wilson said. Rep. Wilson phoned the White House to apologize. Frankly, almost everybody admits it was not a smart nor polite thing to do and he apoligized. What else do you want? These things happen, Move on.

Third, Birthers? Really? You went there, why? Nobody, especially in the article even discussed birthers or that silly idea. It seems the only people who give credence to that sect is the left and only for the purpose of make a backward point. Most folks on the right care nothing about these birther ideas because they are without base.

Fourth, I find it humerous that the left wants to define the right by guys like Glen Beck (whom most conservatives have never listened to) or some other blowhard whos job is not policy, not politics, not issues but.......ENTERTAINMENT. Really, his job is to get you to mention his name over and over and over and over again. Everytime you complain about him, he essentially gets paid (advertisers love guys like this). He will say whatever nonsense that keeps people talking. He is not an ideas person, but rather a marketing/entertainment person. Keep going, you all on the left are making this guy rich.

Lastly, I find it ironic how many on the left are so self conscience with their arguments, so with out base that they resort to name calling and childish responses. What is funny is that you are doing that on a progressive blog which is essentially and echo chamber...you are all just yelling to hear one another yell. So entertaining.