Stop Yelling!

Actually it's not anger

By: _Nancy_ | Sat, 11/07/2009 - 12:11

It's rage. I am completely enraged that I and every other parent on the planet's decisions about how to deal with their children are being constantly second-guessed. There's this presumption that we are so stupid we need to watched like a hawk in case we inflict some sort of damage. It's as if there's something inherently pathological about the relationship between parents and children.

I disagree with your interpretation of the fact that spanking was common and now isn't. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with spanking any more than there is anything inherently wrong with timeouts of even yelling. What the experience of our generation tells us isn't that children are resilient in the face of adversity - although they are - but that standards of what is acceptable and what isn't change according to where and when you happen to be. In a situation where parent are assumed to have the best interests of their children at heart, when they are assumed to be capable of knowing the difference between a smack and a beating, a spanking is not a big deal. In a situation where we obsessively analyse every move parents make - from their attentiveness to the pronouns they use or don't use - discipline of all sorts is undermined. How can we make kids feel safe and secure if we're walking on eggshells about every aspect of our interactions with them?

I think it poisons the relationship between parents and kids. I've heard so many people speculate that their child will end up in therapy because of one thing or another they've done - usually jokingly but there's a serious under current. No wonder there are so many over protective hoovering parents. We're constantly under scrutiny from others and ourselves. This is the problem of modern parenting and yes, personally, politically, spiritually I'm completely pissed off about it.

Parental Judgment

By: bagel | Fri, 10/30/2009 - 13:29

Nancy, I think there's more than enough evidence that parents (myself included) often don't know what's best, or when they do, are limited in their ability to implement it. There's quite a lot of evidence that negative punishments are ineffective at changing behaviors, and yet, it's what most of us instinctively turn to when we are angered or otherwise upset by our children's behavior. The fact that we didn't all turn out to be psychopaths is not evidence that our parent's choices were either good or harmless; it's evidence that we all have the ability to overcome the effects of bad choices. But why should we use that as a reason to continue making bad choices, or to justify new ones?

I don't know if this is accurate, but your posts seem to me to convey a lot of anger and sense of a loss of what to do to discipline your children; they don't convey that you know what's best or that you know how to do what you believe is best. You said in your first post that you don't like yelling but you do it anyway because you don't know what else to do. You later reference being decisive and steady - which I think is what everyone says DOES work. But that's not yelling or spanking, which are decidedly unsteady. The problem is that being decisive and steady is hard for most us, because we have our own emotional reactions to contend with, and so we often end up resorting to what is easier but less effective for all of us.

I was abused as a child, and when I had my own child, all those ghosts came back to haunt me quickly. I did not take that out physically, but I did struggle with anger and yelling. A lot of therapy has helped me learn to deal with my anger and emotions and not let them be part of my parenting. Not that I am perfect by a long shot - I still yell sometimes too, and I hate it too. But I do recognize that I am at my most effective as a parent when I establish rules and enforce them without anger.

Surely You DO Jest.

By: _Nancy_ | Fri, 10/30/2009 - 06:39

It's silly to spank just because it was mentioned in the bible, but you go too far. Millions of Americans grew up at a time when kids were spanked and they aren't bullies or abusers. It's incredibly insulting to suggest that parents don't know the difference between a spanking and child abuse. Why not follow your argument to its logical conclusion? If parents are too stupid to know the difference between spanking and child abuse why should we expect them to know the difference between child abuse and anything else? Should we ban kissing? Should parents not be able to share a bed with their children? Should we ban shouting as psychological abuse. What about parents who are critical? Parents who pressure/hoover/overprotect? Isn't that a sort of abuse? What happens to kids who reach their 20's under those conditions?

I think the starting point for any discussion of this kind absolutely has to be that parents know best most of the time. They know best because they know their children better than any one and because they are so intimately bound to them that to say they "care" about them doesn't even come close to the depth and complexity of that relationship. Most parents do a great job. Unfortunately there's an industry of people out there dedicated to telling them what they're doing wrong - to the point where they start to second guess themselves. When we can't be decisive and steady with our kids, we can't give them what they need - because guess what? It's not about them any more. It's just about us.

Why not beat anyone with whom you don't agree then?

By: surelyyoujest | Thu, 10/29/2009 - 12:38

To all the people here who seem to happy to promote child abuse because the bible says it's ok - the bible also says a man may beat his wife to keep her in line. And then *he* could also be so proud of his ability to keep his whole family in line with his wishes.

Just because you can force someone to behave because you have abused them doesn't mean they have learned anything but fear of retribution from you. Wait until they are in their late 20s before you crow about your supposed success. All you've really taught them is to bully and to have no respect for anyone, and to only act from fear of people who can beat them up. Once they are big enough not to fear you, the game is over.

One who agrees.

By: feministworkingmom | Thu, 10/29/2009 - 10:45

I must be one of the few readers who agrees with the article. Usually, when a parent is yelling at a child, it is because they have lost control of themselves. And rarely have I seen it affect the desired change. Maybe a behavior change, inspiring fear, but not a heart change nor respect. All yelling at my kids does is make them afraid, make them cry. Rational, logical punishments accompanied by a reasonable tone of voice work much, much better.

Parents of today are MORE successful, not less

By: rsplus4 | Thu, 10/29/2009 - 09:08

I vividly remember being tormented throughout school by bullies, most of whom I'm sure got to experience "the rod" on a regular basis, as most of us did at that time (me too). There were fights every day in the hallways, drunk kids puking in class, the occasional weapon, fifth graders getting suspended for smoking at school, not what you'd call the good old days. My father, a sixth-grade teacher, was threatened with a knife.

On the other hand, today, in a much larger and more urban school district, my kids feel safe and have only had the occasional run-in with another student. I think this is a result of less violence in the home; additionally, kids are being taught both directly in the schools and by their parents' examples that there are other ways to problem solve. The horrible stories that we occasionally hear about violence towards children by other children are not the norm...awful as they are...and the norm is much better than it used to be. Crime statistics are DOWN, people. There will always be snotty, spoiled kids, just as there will always be children that are simply not good people and who hurt others. Spanking and yelling won't stop it...they make it worse.

Yelling

By: Karen Malle | Thu, 10/29/2009 - 05:34

"If, in the future, your children don't amount to much, at least you'll know, that it will not be because they haven't been yelled at sufficiently". This remark from a then-child-free friend, stopped me dead in my yelling tracks. It enabled me to cut back significantly on the angry outbursts, with no adverse effects on the children's behaviour.

Puh-lease

By: MrsThang | Thu, 10/29/2009 - 04:36

Sorry, but I don't take disrespect or foolishness from children. I will spank, beat, whatever you want to call it, my kids in a minute. I don't even yell anymore. One look and they know what the deal is. When they test me, they will be left with their little feelings/behinds hurt. My kids know that "Mommy doesn't play" and they behave accordingly. They are very well behaved, do well in school, and are active in extra-curricular activities. The Bible says when you spare the rod, you spoil the child. Foolishness is in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction will drive it out!

You may not agree with me, but best believe, my house is in order.

That article really hit home with me

By: _Nancy_ | Wed, 10/28/2009 - 22:37

I joke that I base my parenting style on Malcolm in the Middle but the truth is I hate yelling. But I feel caught up in a viscous cycle. If the kids don't behave we'll be damned. I've some to the conclusion that Time Outs are the discipline equivalent of Attachment Parenting. If baby wearing, co-sleeping and breastfeeding don't work for you, then you're doing it wrong.

I really resent having to yell but I feel like it's the only thing left to me. I *know* it has diminishing returns. I sound like a complete idiot when they don't listen to me in public and when it is effective it feels wrong. It feels mean and manipulative. I would much rather make the point with a short sharp smack on the butt than morphing into the bitch from Hell just to get them to listen to me.

The climate has shifted so much that it is almost impossible to smack kids today. though there is no credible evidence (contrary to what the article says in passing) that spanking - when spanking is the norm has any sort of effect one way or the other. It enrages me because the argument that there's no difference between spanking and abuse is so contemptuous of parents. So rather than leave us to figure things out for ourselves we're limited to struggling with methods of discipline suitable only for a Nanny reality show (seems to work but it's really just that the Nanny's presence makes it work)or yelling. Sometimes it makes sense to yell but when it's all you can do, it's degrading to everyone involved.

As a recent adult

By: kate | Wed, 10/28/2009 - 22:05

My folks occasionally yelled, but the only time it was actually counterproductive was when they insulted me. I can remember a couple of times when my dad told me I was a "moron", and that was the only time I can remember consciously losing respect for what he was saying. I got spanked a couple of times, and I got yelled at a number of times, but most of it made me a better person.

Of course, the most effective punishments were the creative ones--drunk at 15 in midafternoon? We're going shopping for 3 hours (while I reeled around like a tiny blonde sailor)! Coming home drunk at 17? Clearly, you didn't learn your lesson. We're doing yardwork for 12 hours! Of course, this worked with me because I was a pliable child who wanted to please.

Yelling CAN work. Not in public, because that's just universal embarrassment.